Can understanding body condition optimise sheep flock performance? Plus, rewilding with Derek Gow

Phil: 00:00:00

So, Han, guess where I am today?

Hannah: 00:00:02

So in the background I can see a lot of white, a few plants. You're in some sort of greenhouse.

Phil: 00:00:09

It's. It's in quite a posh building, actually. It's called the Royal Agricultural Hall. Well, it's not anymore.

It's called Islington's Business Design Centre is what it actually is. I'm here with Martin and we're actually at a podcast conference. So we're trying to learn how to do our job. That's the aim.

Hannah: 00:00:29

That's podcastception. So you're. You're hosting a podcast from a podcast show?

Phil: 00:00:34

Yeah.

Hannah: 00:00:35

Are there any good freebies?

Phil: 00:00:36

I could get you some socks. It's not like the old days at the farming shows. Do you remember those paper caps you used to get from, like, Farmers Weekly or Farmers Guardian?

It's like a. It's like a hat made out of a piece of paper and then you. You'd be able to like, pull it out. It would go on top of your head.

It's absolutely no use whatsoever. Couldn't protect you from the elements at all.

Hannah: 00:00:57

I've had a lot of stressed pigs and cows and sheep in my time. Never had a paper hat.

Hannah: 00:01:01

I think I've dodged a bullet there.

Hannah: 00:01:18

Hi, I'm Hannah Clarke.

Phil: 00:01:20

I'm Phil Maiden and welcome to The AG Show.

Hannah: 00:01:23

This week we'll hear all about an AHDB project that's been seven years in the making.

Phil: 00:01:28

And we'll be back to Devon to speak to beef and dairy farmer Derek Banbury, as he's joined this time by his neighbour, Derek Gow.

Hannah: 00:01:38

That's right.

But first up we have the Wilsons, Ian and Anna Wilson, to tell us more about challenged sheep and how they've been looking to improve ewe lifetime performance through breeding and condition.

Ian: 00:01:49

I think one of the biggest things about artibody condition scoring is as long as you're consistent yourself, it doesn't matter what anybody else does, as long as you're confident of where they are within your flock. I think that's one of the most important things.

Phil: 00:02:02

And in part two of our look at the new film Derek vs Derek, Derek Gow tells us why he turned his back on farming to embrace nature.

Derek G: 00:02:11

So about 10 years ago, he'd start to take down the fence, he'd start to disperse the sheep and the domestic cattle that were here and then really start to look at by changing pastures, by reseeding them with yellow rattle, digging very many pools, putting log piles back in, log piles back in. Just creating as much living space for other features as we possibly could.

Hannah: 00:02:31

A reminder, we've got new episodes of the Ag show dropping every Wednesday at midday and they're available wherever you get.

Phil: 00:02:37

Your podcasts with audio and video versions for every show. Just subscribe to make sure you don't miss an episode.

Hannah: 00:02:45

And if you want to get in touch with us, please do. We'd love to hear from you, comment on any of our social posts or email AGSH now we're kicking off this week with quite a big one.

It's the wrap up of Challenge Sheep which is a long running project digging into how body condition and breeding ewes as lambs or shearlings shapes lifetime performance.

Phil: 00:03:07

The project followed the performance of replacement ewes across 11 farms in England, covering a real mix of production systems. Up in the northeast, Ian and Anna Wilson were part of it. They've been telling us their story, but first up, here's a bit about their farm.

Hannah: 00:03:24

Hello.

Ian: 00:03:25

We farm 550 hours on the outskirts of Middlesbrough. They're quite close to North Yorkshire mooahs. The majority of them are Texel and New Zealand Texels with a few soft Texas.

All lambs are sold finished, the majority of which go on contract to Tesco with some going live weight through the local auction mart.

Hannah: 00:03:43

Now the project ran for seven years and Anna admits they've seen a lot of change in that time.

Anna: 00:03:47

The farm itself has evolved massively with sheds and polytunnels and increase in sheep and like the way everything has gone. It was really lovely actually to see the changes within all the different farms as well.

So there were children born and people getting married and it's been a really nice process, hasn't it actually of just like seven years together is a long time to to see things change. Yeah.

Ian: 00:04:16

The other interesting thing was the day we started the Challenge Shape project, lambs were 375A kilo dead weight and I was selling lambs at five pound a kilo live weight on Tuesday night, which just shows a little bit how lamb prices have gone and I haven't dared look to see how fertiliser prices have gone with it, but I assume it's a very similar increase.

Phil: 00:04:36

It's quite stark how the price of everything has gone up. Ian also told us why they got involved in the project.

Ian: 00:04:43

There were a couple of things really. One, we were changing our breed at the time.

We were going away from a very traditional pedigree Texel flock to a lot more easier management grass finishing flock.

So I wanted to use the Challenge sheet project look at other farms as well, see how they were doing it, compare the small improvements we made at the time to other people's and see how that was working.

But also we collected a lot of the data already the challenge sheet wanted, so it wasn't a massive undertaking for us to, to do it because we weren't changing what we were doing greatly. We were changing a few timings, but nothing too serious.

Anna: 00:05:15

Yeah, I think it's very easy to live in your own bubble of your farm. Sometimes you, you will get out and about with local farms, but actually it was really nice to then compare to other farms around the uk.

So there were Auckland and Lowland and like we're absolutely spread out across England.

So I think that was really nice to see that, you know, some of the challenges that we have other people have had or we've overcome some that have maybe helped others.

Hannah: 00:05:45

Yeah, it certainly sounds like all those involved really pulled together to help get the best out of that project. And farmers being farmers, there was the bonus of a ready made excuse to go to the pub.

Ian: 00:05:56

We've had some really good discussions, most of them have been in the bar afterwards. But you learn a lot more through the informal bit sometimes than you ever do during the formal bits, don't you? And have having a good natter.

And the one thing we've said right from the start, we were all very, very honest with each other about our systems and our figures.

So what you see is what you get with with sort of all the farms so you know that you can talk about things that have really happened and everybody there has probably had the same problem. So it's really nice to discuss it all and say, well, actually we've had this and we fix it by doing this.

Or have you tried this or have you tried that?

Anna: 00:06:31

Yeah, I think from the beginning, from that first ever meeting, we all agreed that we were just going to lay the cards table and be honest with one another. It was never going to be a competition. It was never about, oh, my farm's doing so much better than your farm.

It was all about working together, wasn't it? Making sure that data was absolutely spot on and actually reflected what was happening on our farms.

Phil: 00:06:52

Ian, who's a Leicester Tigers fan, judging by the top he was wearing, told us what they were required to do as part of the challenge sheet project.

Ian: 00:07:01

Record weight and body condition score at Tupping scanning, lambing eight weeks and weaning.

And we also had to record lamb birth weight and sires and things like that just so that we could follow lambs back to see what the body condition score of the ewes, the effect it had on the lambs as well. And the lamb weights were recorded at eight weeks and at weaning as well.

Hannah: 00:07:23

Now, given the length of time involved in the heart of this project, we asked Anna and Ian if it had made them think about how they manage their younger ewes or shearlings.

Ian: 00:07:31

We don't lamb you lambs. I keep threatening to and keep thinking of reasons not to.

Anna: 00:07:35

We did when we had the accident though.

Ian: 00:07:37

Yeah, we haven't, we haven't done it on purpose. Let's put it on that. Some of the data I have a challenge shape are beginning to make me think it could be worthwhile doing.

But when we started the project we had a lot of problems with mastitis in, in young yows and that was one thing we really needed to look at and just better management through better feeding, better pre and post lambing management as well. Because you assume that a shearling's your biggest, strongest fittest to you.

Well, actually it doesn't matter when the lamb, they need more attention than we were giving them. And during the seven year project we've managed to really, really reduce the amount of mastitis. So hopefully that's a very big benefit.

Just through losing sheep, that we weren't actually losing many through death, but it was just losing out the flock and having more and more sheep having to come in.

Anna: 00:08:22

Yeah, I think it's very easy, isn't it, to look at your young fit shearlings and think, well, they're in the prime of their life, you know, they'll cope well.

And actually they've not yet finished growing, they're not at their full mature weight and by having that first lamb, you're putting a lot of strain onto that ewe, especially when she's still growing herself.

And I think it's what's come out of this challenge sheet project is actually realizing that if you manage them separately, and I mean when I say separately, we, we haven't done a lot of extra work, have we? You, you've just put them in a different, different field and we look after them and give them a little bit more tlc, really.

And I think that's really changed our shillings, hasn't it? And we're not having to call so many, which is obviously a bonus after.

Phil: 00:09:18

Seven years of monitoring their use. Ian and Anna had this advice to those looking to do the same.

Ian: 00:09:24

I think one of the biggest things about your body condition scoring is as long as you're consistent yourself it doesn't matter what anybody else does, as long as you are confident of where they are within your flock. I think that's one of the most important things. And body condition scoring as a whole, I think it's just having your hand on them fairly frequently.

Every time you have them in, have your hand on them and just keep an eye on them. Because what the Challenge Shape Project showed is that the change makes a difference. So you've got to be able to know when to step in and tell.

Actually, some of these sheep need a bit more grass or they need less. And it's just being able to manage the entire flock around your body condition score, rather than just thinking, oh, I've got a few thin yows.

Anna: 00:10:05

Yeah, I think as well that we've noticed that we do have ewes that will drop quite a big body condition score post weaning, but then actually they recover really quickly. And so you see a pattern emerging for different sheep. Some sheep will sort of stay relatively consistent, some have quite a dramatic drop.

But it's actually knowing that that is normal for that sheep, that actually she's following that pattern every single year.

And really it's when they start stepping out of their normal pattern that you then realize that maybe there's a problem and that she might only have dropped one body condition score, for example. But actually when you start looking at it, she doesn't normally. She normally only drops half a body condition score.

And in that instance, you then start to think to yourself, okay, maybe she's starting to struggle a little bit more. Is it because she's getting older? Is there another underlying cause? And I think those sort, that sort of data has often passed people by.

It's all right doing your body condition scores, but actually when you look at that data, you're getting so much more information per sheep.

Hannah: 00:11:16

So how has the Challenged Sheep Project helped Anna and Ian look at their own ewe mortality? And how do they select ewes for culling?

Ian: 00:11:23

Well, we are incredibly lucky that we have Ben Strugnel at farm post mortems not too far up the road from us. So all dead sheep on the farm go up to him to get PM'd. So we know exactly what the root cause of all our deaths are.

I would say generally there isn't one root cause on the farm, it's just shape being shape. So in terms of deaths, we're relatively happy that we know we haven't got too big a problem. Touch wood cooling strategy.

We collect an awful lot of data. So I can tell you Everything about the shape throughout their entire life.

Whether it's actually worth some of the time I spend on it, I'm not certain, but that's for another discussion.

But we can look at all our shape and basically anything that has lambs in the bottom 25% weight wise at weaning, go on to what we call the naughty list.

And they're allowed on it once and if they're on it twice, then they go, generally speaking, a lot of shailings on it in the first year because they have lighter lambs, so that's taken into consideration. But again, it's just to make certain the performance is there all the time.

There are some favourites that make it on the list every year that somehow manage to not get called, but some of them might be my wife's, might be Anna's, but we won't go into that. And there's the odd favorite that you keep because you like them and I don't care what anybody says, we've all got them.

Phil: 00:12:42

Another person who's helped the Wilsons during their challenge sheet project is their vet, Dawn.

Anna: 00:12:47

She has a massive impact, doesn't she, on us?

I mean, we're so lucky to have dawn, who has recently won Agricultural Advisor of the Year at the Women in Agriculture Awards, which just goes to show how amazing she actually is. But we have a good relationship with her.

Like, not only does she do, like, flock health plans, but she really looks into everything for us, doesn't she? And it's not just a quick fix, it's how can we move on, how can we improve?

And she's always just a phone call away from any problem that we might come across and how we can fix it. I mean, she's, she's really come. We've put her through her paces, haven't we? Have done, definitely.

One of my sheep in particular has put her through her paces, which she always threatens she'll have a full chapter on what my. This one sheep when she writes a book. But she's absolutely brilliant. I don't know what we'd do without her, to be honest.

Hannah: 00:13:46

So what's next for Ian and Anna?

Ian: 00:13:47

It'd be very interesting to see when all the data comes out and we've seen a lot of the data over the years in sort of individual little part. We're seeing it all together as one lump. Will be very, very interesting to see what.

Anna: 00:13:58

Yeah.

Ian: 00:13:59

What the actual outcomes are, because we've, we've seen enough data over the years to guess what the outcomes will be. But obviously by the time it's all finished and collated, then that'll be the. The real test of what we've done over the last seven years.

Anna: 00:14:12

Yeah, I just think that you can look at our data from seven years and it's mind blowing. So what will it be for all of the challenged sheep farms over seven years?

Phil: 00:14:23

If you want to learn how other farmers like Ian and Anna Wilson, as well as the vets, have been able to use the findings of the Challenge Sheet project to help them manage young ewes and to optimise ewe performance, then come along to one of our Flock foundation roadshows.

Hannah: 00:14:39

Now, there will be an event near you from June to September on a range of farms and will cover upland, lowland and hill farming Systems. Go to hdb.org.uk events to find the one nearest to you and you can find out more about the Challenge Sheet project on our website as well.

Right, brace yourselves. This week we're taking another look at the new film Derek vs Derek.

And if you can remember, it's a documentary that looks at farming versus rewilding. Or maybe not versus. We'll let them argue that part out.

Phil: 00:17:06

Last month we spoke to Devon beef and dairy farmer Derek Bambury. He's back again, but so too is his neighbor from the opposite side of the lane, Derek Gough.

Before we speak to him, here's a reminder of what to expect from the film when it's released.

Derek B: 00:17:22

It's like he's gone mad. This is the difference now. This is my farm edge which has been trimmed. And this is a rewilding edge here. What a bloody mess.

Derek G: 00:17:37

Every year he comes to see me and says, would you like your hedgerows cut, Derek? And every year I say off.

Derek B: 00:17:50

Population's getting bigger, it's not getting smaller. And everybody's gonna be happy if they've got full bellies. Unless it's good maize. Look at this. And that's up to my head.

Derek G: 00:18:06

This is my land and I'm going to heal it to create life.

Derek B: 00:18:13

What Derek's doing is such a mess. He's spoiling good land.

Unknown: 00:18:18

When the country starving, they'll understand what they know.

Derek G: 00:18:22

I know it says bull. Con artist, ego. No, I don't care. We're talking about reins of using the wolf in England. What are you thinking about it?

Derek B: 00:18:34

Not good.

Derek G: 00:18:35

Not good. Why not talk to campers and see.

Derek B: 00:18:38

If they want a load of wolves eating them up? Yes. In the last 70 years we lost more animals, insects than the 11,000 years before.

Phil: 00:18:48

They're lovely birds.

Derek G: 00:18:50

They used to Be here then they were made extinct.

Derek B: 00:18:53

They could be made extinct again, perhaps.

Derek G: 00:18:57

I won't change. I want change.

Phil: 00:19:03

So that's a little snippet from the film.

And if you're interested in watching it, there are going to be a number of screenings going on during the summer and the film's going to be available in cinemas this autumn. So let's speak now to another Derek, because we spoke to one Derek last time. Derek Garrough's with us as well this time.

Derek, just before we get into talking about the film itself, can you just tell us a little bit about who you are and how you ended up becoming the rewilding guy that everyone's arguing about?

Derek G: 00:19:35

Who am I? Well, my name is Derek Garraw, I'm Scottish. I was born in Dundee.

r in agriculture in the early: 1980

2003, I bought a farm just down the road from Derrick Landry and farmed for a little while and then decided I was turning the whole thing over to meat. I'm not sure that anybody is talking about me, but it's very nice meat space.

Phil: 00:20:03

So when farmers hear about the word rewilding, you do get quite a few kind of thinking it's taking land out of food production. Are they wrong about that or are they bang on?

Derek G: 00:20:15

In the end, it will involve taking land out of food production, but when you actually look at it, 35% of the land we farm produces 2% of the calories and 85% of the rich. Land, which is mainly in East Anglia, produces the bulk of the calories we consume in Britain.

So when you look at it, farming could only operate in these periods on the basis of subsidies, and the subsidies are finishing now.

There's a very good economic case for doing something different with the land, which involves restoration of lost biodiversity, purification of water, retention of water and rewilding has much to do with those aspects of land use.

Phil: 00:20:49

And do you enjoy winding farmers like your neighbour up a bit, or is that just a side effect of. Of saying what you think and what you believe?

Derek G: 00:20:58

I enjoy winding your quail a lot. And you enjoy winding me up, don't you? Yeah, we both enjoy that very much. From a personal basis? No, not really.

And I mean, to be quite honest, I think for very many people there's not a huge wind up in it when you explain that.

A lot of that has to do with just changing the landscapes, cutting off odd wet corners Thickening hedgerows, you know, making sure that there is space for other things to live as well. So, so it's a compromise and you're cutting off land that produces nothing anyway, then it's no big deal.

This fully welding thing, which is a tiny, tiny percentage of the land use in ground. It's maybe if it is 50,000 acres, it'll be doing well to be that against the very many millions of acres that are 70 odd million that are farmed.

I don't think there's really that much contention in this issue at all. It's a contention that's entirely made up.

Phil: 00:21:49

Is there a point in your life where you kind of had a bit of an epiphany about your views?

Derek G: 00:21:54

I used to keep a lot of sheep and actually I like sheep very much. I mean my family, my great grandfather's family, you know, kept very many blackface sheep and the in the Scottish border.

So I've had plenty, plenty of time out shows and sales sort of sheep.

But in the end when you start farming here, you just begin to realize that what you're actually doing, I mean in the time I was here I saw the last of the curlews, the last of the whimblow, the last of the short eared owls, the last of the hen harriers. You know, in the end it becomes a bit of a burden when all these things go just because you're doing something in the way that everybody else does.

Hannah: 00:22:30

I'm just, I'm super fascinated by your dynamic and for those that are listening, Derek and Derek are in the same room. So I'm just, I'm loving the dynamic with the bruise on as well at the moment. What did you just hold up there, Derek?

Derek G: 00:22:46

I love the last of the best guests. Are there any chocolate ones?

Derek B: 00:22:49

I'm giving him coffee and biscuits.

Derek G: 00:22:51

Yeah, we need all the chocolate ones.

Hannah: 00:22:54

Derek.

When we hear the word rewilding, I guess it's a big topic and it's very complicated and in sort of land use we talk about land sharing and land sparing and saving, you know, big areas for, for conservation and taking that out of production. But obviously we've got to, we've got to do this in conjunction with producing food to feed a growing population.

How do you sort of see UK land use going over time and do you think that, you know, rewilding is something that can be done on a more granular level and everyone can sort of take part in or is this a, is this something that should be kept more separate?

Derek G: 00:23:30

Well, you take part in it. If you've got a garden on the basis, you can start to leave Rockwells in your garden. Dig ponds, use British wildflowers that attract insects.

There's much people can do in a small scale.

But if you're looking at the landscape, I mean, the government's own projections for land use which were published a little over three weeks ago, suggest that to see an appreciable difference. And let's not forget that Britain is an island which is, you know, where nature is all but destroyed.

ned or returning to nature by: 2030

And that's going to involve about 9% of the land going back into, you know, the production of nature. Because we so squeezed it that you're even at the corns.

I mean, Derek, you can remember, you know, you told those lovely stories about the time of the grandfatherless fear. You know, the wet meadows in the bottom where the curlies, you know, laid their eggs, or the kinks in the hedges where the glow worms were.

Why did we have to sweeten all these out? Why did we have to drain them all? It's not because, you know, it's produced any more food.

It's because the incentives from government, from the European Union were there to do these things. They weren't particularly mean, they weren't designed, the curlews and the laplings, but that was the net end result of what happened.

So when we talk about re welding, it's not all just about the return of the wolf though personally I think that would be a good idea, which Derek definitely doesn't agree with.

But it's about how do we actually look at the land in a different way and say like these bits around the edge which produce nothing, which are too wet or, you know, in the east, lands are too sandy, you can't do anything without irrigation. These bits go back to nature.

And then we basically see how we join up the dots and the corridors in the maps of Britain to ensure that things can have breathing space, there is enough food for other creatures and life starts to reform, if it can. Because we've done so much damage to species over here. There are ones that are really common that for some of them their time has come.

So if you want one, just quick example, there's a blackbird called a ring ouzel. It's a pink blackbird. It's like a thrush white ring around its neck. There's one pair left Living on Dartmoor, that used to be a common bird.

And when you do the DNA on them, it's the mother and her son. There is nothing else left. And that's all our fault.

Hannah: 00:25:46

And how long has your sort of rewilding journey been, Derek? How sort of long have you been changing your land and changing your farm?

Derek B: 00:25:54

Not long.

Derek G: 00:25:55

Not long have you really? As soon as we start changing the farm because with some animals year for photography for many years.

So about 10 years ago, we'd start to take down the fences, start to disperse the sheep and the domestic cattle that were here, and then really start to look at changing pastures by reseeding them with yellow rattle, digging very many pools, putting rock piles back in, log piles back in, just creating as much living space for other creatures as we possibly could.

Hannah: 00:26:21

And what changes have you seen? Have you seen increases in certain species or any new ones sort of making home on your land?

Derek G: 00:26:28

Yeah, and I mean, the birds have been the most interesting because we've had things like stone chats return to breed here because the gorse is regrowing again. You know, really big flocks of goldfinches forming.

Towards the end of the summer, you'll have, you know, literally hundreds and hundreds of these adult birds with their chicks linnets about the same skylarks are returned again.

And then really when you walk through, I mean, I took Derek down and you'll see in the film to the bottom of some of the meadows, the wildflowers are growing well and you can stand. And when you stop talking, you just hear this low buzz in the background.

So the insects, the butterflies, swallows, house martins, San martins have returned in considerable numbers.

Hannah: 00:27:10

And I know this, I watched the trailer and there was sort of talk about a lot of talk about hedges and animals getting through the gaps in the hedges and why, you know, Derek Bambury decides to keep his hedges tight. But. So that's maybe not an ideal impact of your rewilding efforts, Derek Gal.

But I wonder if what the benefits might be of your actions over the hedge.

Derek G: 00:27:32

Derek, bless him as a neat and tidy farmer, is very proud of his hedgerows being neat. From here to the Dead Sea or whatever, they stall. But what my hedgerows do is different. They give the birds song perches.

So in the spring the male birds can go out and sing or meeting poles at the top of these effing hedges. You get a lot of berries, you get a lot of nuts, you get a lot of COVID of different sort, but what you actually don't get.

And at some stage we'll have a chat about this, is that when you look at Derek's hedges, much of his hedges are exposed to sunlight. This incredible display of primroses, red cantheon, a variety of other wildflowers very early in the year.

And what we will probably do this year, under my supervision, of course, Wallet, is we'll go along some of the big wild hedges I've got and we'll cut out scallops in them to open into the wildflowers. Because the wildflowers are the things that feed the butterflies, too. So it's a compromise and that, you know, if you don't.

If you just let the hedges grow up completely, then you have some things but not others. But if you actually start to manage your hedges in a way that's kind of different, then potentially you can. You could do everything.

So it'd be a nice thing. We can work together on that.

Derek B: 00:28:47

I can't believe you just said that.

Derek G: 00:28:49

He's gonna have to go for a wee lie down now, actually.

Hannah: 00:28:53

So is there a friendship? Is there a. Is there a friend symbiosis sort of forming here if there's benefits across?

Derek B: 00:28:59

Oh, we've always been friends.

James: 00:29:01

We've always.

Derek B: 00:29:02

We've only had once when. When we had the wild boar. I rung Derek up and I said, I think we got wild boar in our land. And Derek said, we left. Yes, he lost some. They've escaped.

And he admitted it and he said, I can't do nothing, Derek. Just get somebody to shoot him with a rifle. So that's what happened.

Phil: 00:29:21

Are wild boar not quite destructive for your nature plans?

Derek G: 00:29:26

No, they're not destructive from point of view. I wanted to. Because what they've done is we had them for a number of years now there's only two.

And they are very tame ones that come, you know, when you rattle a bucket.

So they're not sort of things going to be jumping fences, but what they do is in pastures that are flat, that have been flattened by clouds, flattened by people. Derock. You put the wild boar in and the bore basically are plows.

They go back in, they dig the land up, they expose the seed bed to annual plants, and then ultimately they open the seed bed for the perennial plants to take over.

So what you end up with are meadows that are not just rye grass, they're full of knapweeds and a whole host of red campions, a whole host of other flowering wildflowers, which, of course, is great for the insects and for the butterflies and also make loads and loads of wallows in hot weather. In the wallows you get frogs laying their eggs, toads laying their eggs, dragonflies laying their eggs.

So the boar reefs fault landscapes, if you no longer want to farm those landscapes. And of course, after all, they're a native animal, they should be here.

And in some parts of Britain, like the Forest of Dean and the west coast of Scotland, there are very big populations of them developing and in some way they are restoring themselves for Britain. But difficult and intensively wild landscapes.

Hannah: 00:30:43

I was just going to say, I think the wild boar point is a really interesting one. I mean, in the pig markets at the moment, we are watching ASF really, really closely.

And on the continent, a lot of that spread has been in parts due to wild boar. So it's just an interesting proposition, I suppose, and I guess we need to be cognizant of the risk around disease spread.

Have you got any reflections on that?

Derek G: 00:31:08

Yeah, well, most of the pigs we're fattening are fattened in sheds. Well, boar don't have keys to lock. How's this going to be a major issue?

Derek B: 00:31:15

There's a lot of pigs up country outfield, isn't it?

Derek G: 00:31:17

Ukraine for outdoor pigs is going to be an issue.

But see, what we've always done in the past is every time there's a threat to our domestic livestock from anything, we always view wild animals as being the only thing, the only issue, and we go and kill them. What we never do is we never look at our own behaviour.

Hannah: 00:31:32

I think we'll take a little pause now and we'll hear more from Derek and Derek and James after the break. You're listening to the Ag show with me, Hannah, Phil and producer Martin. And, of course, if you want to get in touch with us, please do.

We'd love to hear from you. The email you need is agshowdb.orguk. But let's get back to Derek v Derek.

Phil: 00:33:25

It feels the whole kind of rewilding narrative often focuses on conventional farming practices, and I appreciate that you've got some quite strong views on that. But do you think the focus is disproportionate onto agriculture, bearing in mind all the other things that are impacting wildlife in this country?

Because I often hear us talking about the impact of farming, but what about the impact that house building, road development has had, those sorts of things? Are they kind of not taking as much of a responsibility as maybe farming does for these issues that we've got?

Derek G: 00:34:04

There are many problems with many things. So the road building and the isolation of creatures within islands of Rhodes we know to be a huge problem.

You know, things like, you know, the rubber that comes off tire wheels.

I can't remember the exact details, but it's now been shown that this can combine with other natural elements and pollute water courses in a way that leaves you with these awful forever chemicals. It's us farming is a big part of it.

But, you know, when it comes to it, you have to bear in mind that when people talk about farming, farming as if it's like some sort of. There's something out of Lord of the Rings and there's the orcs, it's not like that at all.

What you're dealing with are a bunch of individuals, a lot of very brilliant people and very kind farmers like Derek who do what they do very well. I mean, you see some of the awful bits of footage of animals being mistreated. He doesn't behave in that way with regard to his cattle.

In fact, he spends an awful lot of time playing with them in the fields where he should be working.

But the long, the shorter Thursday, you know what the most sensible way to pursue all of this is to look for what middle ground there is and see how you adapt to the middle ground. But that requires both sides of the debate to find space.

And maybe that will mean that there are some areas of the landscape or more net castles in the way that Charlie Burrells changed his land and the wider countryside where only thing that matters there is nature. But then the nature when you produce that has to go out into the wider landscape as well.

And it can only go into the wider landscape if we reshape that landscape to give it a home and a food resource. So, you know, how would you find the middle way?

But this argument, when you look at things of the white tailed eagles being reintroduced to X men and yet again we've got this podity about they're going to eat lambs. There's no evidence.

Derek B: 00:35:49

The video he picked up one on.

Derek G: 00:35:51

Dy, the evidence dead.

It's not kicking and screaming, it's wiggling the rack as dead as a donor, you know, and there's no evidence anywhere else in the world of these things being a significant problem for sheep. Why all of a sudden would there be a problem here? If you look at the forage in the Isle of Wight, they've not killed a single lamb.

All those eagles have radio transmitters on the S. They look big. When you're very tired at lambing time, you can see why people just get angry about feeding a Dead sheep. But they don't kill them.

Derek B: 00:36:21

Well, they would.

Derek G: 00:36:22

I bet they would. No. They would. No. Golden eagles, wrong eagle. The value white tailed eagles do it. We won't worry. Worry about the golden eagles anyway.

You don't have to worry.

Derek B: 00:36:31

Don't worry. Then the commentator said, don't worry, there's plenty of sheep out there for the eagle.

Derek G: 00:36:35

Do you? And actually you've been a horrible little dog. What's that? That's just about the size of that eagle. That's my daughter's.

It's about that size is really horrible.

Derek B: 00:36:43

The worst thing in farming is starlings. We've had enormous, enormous lot of starlings this winter. And they go in all the sheds and they. Oh, they poop everywhere.

And they seem begin getting bigger.

Derek G: 00:36:59

Is that bigger than numbers or physically bigger in numbers? The sarlings are now the size of a duck. It's actually brilliant.

You come into Derek's farmyard in the wintertime, you can put a bird watching hide just out behind the house here. There's a number of starlings form these great murmurations when they go to roost.

And of course they've been roosting at Linda's garden where she plied all the conifers. So what you've done is created starling heaven and provided him with lots of food. Well done. Does that make you feel happy?

Derek B: 00:37:26

No.

Hannah: 00:37:28

Derek, would you say there's probably an education piece coming out of this documentary regards to rewilding and the impact?

Derek G: 00:37:36

Yeah.

Derek G: 00:37:37

Well, I mean that one film that we had down in St. Giles, nobody was fighting at the end of it all?

Derek B: 00:37:42

No, there was a lot to think about. Somebody asked me in the market yesterday because I get no every time I get quizzed about the film. And when's that release? When can I see it?

All these questions. End of the day, which is right? You know, which is right.

Phil: 00:38:00

James, have you, if you worked it out, you're the one who's editing the film. Have you, have you, have you got all the answers that we need?

James: 00:38:08

No, I'm a filmmaker. But as you can see from the pair of them, they're really good to film with.

They are enjoyable people to spend time with and they have a really interesting relationship. I haven't got the answers, but I do. I know one thing. We need food, but we also want, need nature back.

And there must be some way of finding our way through this as a, you know, as a nation. That's what I hope.

Phil: 00:38:31

Yeah, I think everyone, everyone will agree with, with that, James. And you know, we all we all know we need food and we all know we need good nature as well. We could chat all day because it is fascinating.

So, unfortunately we're limited by time on the podcast. But really, really I'm finding it very interesting talking to you and hearing all about this. It really resonates kind of with, with our farm at home.

We've only planted trees, we've not removed hedges or anything, we've only grown our nature on our farm. But I wouldn't say we're potential particularly kind of nature focused. It's just kind of part of what we do on the farm. But, you know, there is a.

A bit of balance, feels sensible, is easy.

Derek G: 00:39:14

It's like if you've got waste sports, smash the jeans, put pools in, it's not going to cost you anything. It's not going to make any difference to your bottom line at all. And then if you have rubble, make sure you always put it in big, sunny, exposed.

If you've got your hedge lines and stuff facing south because that gives your insects a chance, then the reptiles come, then the predators.

There are little things that can be done that make a huge amount of difference and they don't affect in any way, shape or form the commercial operation of a farm. It's looking at the landscape in a different way and figuring out how you can make space on that basis.

Hannah: 00:39:53

Derek Bambury. I'm just interested.

Obviously there's a lot going on in farming at the moment and the dairy sector's seen quite a lot of pressure recently with the milk price and, and where that's going. I'm interested. Where does this whole sort of debate sit on your priority list as a farmer?

Derek B: 00:40:07

Well, it don't. It don't. It don't affect me, really. I do my bit on the farm, trying to fence off woodland and corner fields and all that.

Like we've done it in the past and I'll be doing more in the future. But we don't let it affect the farming. This farming's our main priority. That's where we get our money from.

That's what pays the bills and pays the mortgage and never affect that as long as some, you know, we got a ride. I know the milk's dropped immensely. We were getting 46 pounds a liter, now it's down to 33.

terday was terrible again, up: 3003

Well, I can't understand it. And you can tell, you know, given a lot of money for cars in it. Everybody's looking for the two years time when everything gets scarce, I think.

I don't know why they are giving us much for cards, but look into the future more.

Hannah: 00:41:10

And I suppose these kind of rewilding efforts and improvements you can make to your bottom line are sort of good for business resilience generally.

Derek B: 00:41:19

Course they are. Yes, everybody. All farmers love to see nature. Every day when you go out with the tractor, you see.

Love to see the peasants and the birds and the foxes and the squirrels and you love to see it. Yeah, it's. It's part of life, isn't it?

Hannah: 00:41:36

And James, look, this film's coming. It's hotly anticipated. Where can our listeners go and watch and listen when it comes out?

James: 00:41:44

The film will be on in cinemas in the autumn and we're hoping that will extend into the winter and maybe even into the spring all over the country.

But ahead of that, what we're trying to put in place is a farmer screening program where we can get film out to farmers in pubs, clubs, cattle markets, wherever you want to see it.

And if you go to our website, which is ww.derek versus derek.com, you can sign up and there's a form there and you can just put your name down and we'll come back to you and try and make this arrangement because we really want the film to be a sort of focus of this kind of debate.

It felt to me there's so much polarization about this issue, but actually when you scratch the surface, people, there is, there's much more commonality than you think and much more shared experience.

Hannah: 00:42:36

Yeah, we'll make sure to put the links in the, in the show notes.

It seems like this is just the start of a conversation and I'm really excited to see the outcome of farmers going to watch the films and people on the rewarding side of the fence going to see the film and just the conversations that will happen off the back of it.

Phil: 00:42:52

Yeah, maybe we could get you back on once we've got some reaction to the film as well and see how you feel about how it's gone down in the farming community when you're celebrities. Yeah, that'd be great.

Derek G: 00:43:05

Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll not hold our breath until I thumbs the wall.

Phil: 00:43:10

Well, I don't know about you, Han, but I found that conversation with the Derricks and James really fascinating. And I am definitely going to go out of my way to go and watch that film.

Hannah: 00:43:20

And I love the fact that they were both in the same room and they were sharing biscuits and drinking tea. I just love the dynamic they've both got. They're so.

They're quite chalk and cheese in a lot of respects and I think probably a lot of farmers can resonate with. With that maybe with some of their neighbors. But yeah, I think. I think this film will be a really, really good watch.

Phil: 00:43:40

We shall wait and see what the reaction to the film is like from the farming community. As we said, maybe we might get them back on at some point.

Hannah: 00:43:48

I'll leave you to. To your conference.

Phil: 00:43:50

robably stop doing mine about: 2005

Hannah: 00:44:04

Thank you so much. I'll see you next week.

Phil: 00:44:07

See you next week.